the fire these times

64/ In the End, It Was All About Love (with Musa Okwonga)

Welcome to The Fire These Times, the podcast bringing you conversations at the intersection of politics, culture and the environment. 

I’m your host Joey Ayoub and today we’ll be talking to Musa Okwonga. Musa is a writer, broadcaster, poet, speaker, musician. author, sportswriter, broadcaster and commentator on current affairs. He’s also the first person to come on the podcast three times (twice here and once in the previous ‘Hummus For Thought’ one).

He most recently published a wonderful short book called “In The End, It Was All About Love” and published by Rough Trade Books, as well as “One of Them: An Eton College Memoir” published by Unbound.

The Fire These Times is available on Apple Podcasts, Anchor, Breaker, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, Radio Public, Spotify, Pocket Casts, Castro, Vurbl and RSS. It is also on YouTube.

Topics discussed:

  • Brexit
  • Leaving home
  • Racism
  • The Holocaust
  • Being a migrant
  • European fascism
  • Living in the future
  • Visibility as racialised people
  • Ethics of taking certain gigs as freelancers
  • Going to Eton
  • The importance of doing therapy
  • The role of football

Books Mentioned:

  • The Three Mothers: How the Mothers of Martin Luther King, Jr., Malcolm X, and James Baldwin Shaped a Nation by Anna Malaika Tubbs
  • Songs My Enemy Taught Me by Joelle Taylor
  • Brown Baby: A Memoir of Race, Family and Home by Nikesh Shukla

If you like what I do, please consider supporting this project with only 1$ a month on Patreon or on You can also do so directly on PayPal if you prefer.

Patreon is for monthly, PayPal is for one-offs and BuyMeACoffee has both options.

If you can’t donate anything, you can still support this project by sharing with your friends and leaving a review wherever you get your podcasts!

Music by Tarabeat.

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